Reply to Sam's post
Yeah, sorry to agree but you are right.
I'm not sure that I would go so far to say that music is the primary symptom of our insulated sub-culture, but it is a big part.
I had an interesting conversation with a dude who's fully into the holiness attitude in Christianity (as we all should be) but in such a way that he refused to go to parties or listen to secular music or whatever to avoid temptation. He does not have any friends who were not Christian.
What is the Gospel and who is it for?
We cannot shut ourselves away in our little/big churches and homegroups and simply pray for the lost. Prayer must be coupled with action - the most consistant result of the Holy Spirit entering into the lives of believers in Acts was mission - evangelism!
And if we don't evangelise, do we truely love our unsaved neighbours? Do we truely love God? Do we have the Holy Spirit? Are we saved at all?
And with 'Christian' music (as that is what I'm supposed to be commenting on) if we have the greatest story ever known in all of creation, and if we have divine inspiration from the Holy Spirit, should we not write and play the most magnificant music in the world? We used to.
posted by Jakes @ 2:49 AM
15 comments
15 Comments:
Why should we be into the holiness attitude in Christianity?
Because that is loving God with our lives.
I'm pretty sure what Jakes is getting at isn't the whole 'thou shalt not go to parties and smoke weed and defile thyself' legalism crap, I think he just means striving after perfection, the pursuit of righteousness like Paul went on about in Hebrews.
Yeah that's right Sam, but there's no 'just' about it!
Does a 'holiness attitude' not provoke exclusion as people become classed according to their levels of holiness?
(Ps: Paul didn't write Hebrews.)
Read Ephesians, or Colossians. Either is good.
It seems pretty straight-forward to me.
And which interpretive method should I apply to those texts? If you read them with the 'holiness attitude' as a lens then of course you will understand them as referring to the 'holiness attitude' - that seems pretty straight-forward to me.
Sorry to be difficult, but your attempt to convince me is rather lacking...
Try reading those letters with a Christological (Christ-centred) lens.
If you're having difficulty give me a call or email or something.
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Yeah ok.
My christ-centred lens tells me NOT to focus on the 'holiness attitude', or at least to view it with secondary importance.
Christ's portrayal, within the gospels (especially the synoptic's) show him as venomously against the 'holiness attitude' practised by the religious elite of his day. He saw this predominate view of religious purity resulting in people being categorized according to their likeness with 'God's perfection' and consequently exclusion followed.
Jesus' message in reaction to this movement was one of compassion. Have compassion on sinners, the excluded, and so on. The old view "Israel, be holy as God is holy", became "Be compassionate, as God is compassionate" through Jesus.
Thus my very Christological image is opposed to the 'holiness attitude' you are attempting to argue for.
Furthermore, my reading of Ephesians and Colossians, and commentaries regarding them, suggest that they are more concerned with the Church or community collectively. Consequently, applying a largely individualistic lens, which I think the 'holiness attitude' promotes, appears mightily isogetical.
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Just to be a little more explanatory:
When I read epistles that contend for aspects of the 'holiness code' through my Christ-centred lens, I realise that there is a whole heap of context behind these individual letters. To me, it suggests that these particular communities were going through moments of moral depravity as they went overboard with their freedom in Christ. Thus, these letters do not preach the 'holiness attitude' but moral responsibility or awareness within the freedom that Christ presents us. An example of a letter which focuses on the opposite extreme is Galatians, in which members of a particular community had become over-engaged in the legalism of the 'holiness attitude'.
My Christ-centred lens tells me that religious adherence revolves around 'compassion' and not the 'holiness attitude' - this does not mean that we should strive to be unholy, rather Jesus taught that being a Christ-centred individual or community has very little to do with following the 'holiness attitude'. These letters advocate that freedom in Christ is not the same as un-holiness, and not that Christians should be into the 'holiness attitude'.
This all seems pretty straight-forward to me.
Which brings me back to my first point, "Why should we be into the holiness attitude in Christianity?"
Great post Jakes, very very well written.
I agree, if we have the only message that provides genuine salvation for everyone who hears and believes then how is not telling anybody about it ever help?
Granted, God has his ways of getting the word out there - sometimes having to resort to donkeys, but that shows our level of commitment sometimes :)
I got a message that Pastor Paul Scanlon from England preached on at Pursuit of Excellence saying that God uses people that move. If churches or christians arent in motion he'll even resort to unsaved people to continue working towards his plan on the earth.
I'll try get it to ya if you're interested.
Hope you're well by the way :)
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ha ha, hi. I'm in a silly mood and must use my time while I wait for dinner in town. At my conference this week. hope you are having a great holiday mate. You rock. Sorry no deep convo. My brain has been working intensly all day :)
See ya ;)
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